New Grain Haze?

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New Grain Haze?

Postby GuitarLord5000 » Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:40 pm

So, I made a couple beers with a 50/50 mixture of german Munich and Vienna malts. The runoff seemed clear enough (the second beers runoff was the clearest I've ever seen!), but after the boil, the wort finished hazy. I use Irish Moss in the boil, and haven't had any problems with wort clarity in the past when using pale and pilsner malts. The haziness comes through in the finished beer, and bentonite doesn't seem to help. The beers taste fine, but are far cloudier than I like.
Since everything else about my process has remained the same, I'm wondering if there's something about Munich or Vienna malt that is causing the problem. Would a protein rest be beneficial with these malts? Im using a single infusion at about 158 degrees right now.

Cheers,
Dave
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Postby aleguy » Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:29 pm

Damn! You like your beer sweet! I try to never go over 154 as a ceiling for sweet beers. As far as the haze, it probably isn't your grain if the mash ran clear. either your yeast isn't flocculating or you have an infection that isn't prominent enough to affect the flavor of your beer. Could be you picked up some wild yeast. It happens more often when you brew in hot weather. Basically, if your beer tastes good and you aren't brewing for competition, then just enjoy it. Nothing that can make you sick lives in finished beer, so "Don't worry. Relax. Have a homebrew."
On second thought. Munich doesn't have enough enzymes to convert itself, and Vienna just barely has enough to convert itself. If you don't want to add enough pilsner or other high diastatic grain to fully convert the Munich, you can buy a little jar of amylase enzymes art Marcello's for reasonably cheap. Just add the correct amount (I think it's one tsp/5-gallons) and everything should convert.
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Postby GuitarLord5000 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:40 pm

I've always been under the impression that Munich and Vienna malts had sufficient diastatic power to self convert. I did add a half pound of toasted malt to my most recent attempt, but the grain bill for that one had considerably more Vienna malt (8 lbs), far less Munich (2 lbs), and a pound of Pilsner. I'm waiting for it to finish fermenting right now, to see if it has the same hazy problem as the other two. Upon chilling the wort, it seemed very cloudy as well.
So far, I'm just happy that my beers are tasting fine. I'd like to figure out the haziness problem though, because I'd like to eventually enter my brew into a few competitions. For my next beer, I'll be doing a double decoction, and hit a protein rest for about 20 minutes, to see if that helps. Also, I'll be adding a bit of calcium chloride, baking soda, and epsom salt to the mash water, since I've switched to using Reverse Osmosis water.

Cheers,
Dave
In extreme circumstances, the assailants can be stopped by removing the head or destroying the brain. I will repeat that: by removing the head or destroying the brain. - News Anchor, Shaun of the Dead
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Postby aleguy » Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:30 pm

It couldn't hurt to put some amylase in the mash. But it's your call. According to Ray Daniels (I think) the Munich has very low to no diastatic power, but it may vary according to who you believe. The only thing I can think is that the haze is caused by starches that weren't converted, or yeast that isn't settling out.
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Postby ragin_cajun » Sat Jun 27, 2009 8:39 am

Munich converts just fine all by itself. I treat it just like Pilsner or 2 row or any other base grain. I often make lagers with 95% Munich malt bill, no problem with conversion.

As for haze--pour half a glass of beer and leave it out long enough to reach room temperature. See if the haze gets better or disappears altogether. I make alot of hazy beers, and I'm realizing just this year that it's almost always a "chill haze".

I have been posting about haze for several years now, and I've never gotten a good answer as to what causes it or what to do about it. I generally get "you can filter it" or "just live with it".
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Postby aleguy » Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:44 am

If it's just chill haze, it doesn't affect flavor one bit. It should also settle out with a couple of weeks of cold conditioning. If you keg, try drinking the first couple of glasses (after 2 weeks) then transferring to a fresh keg. Try to leave a few more glasses in the first keg so you don't just blow the sediment into the fresh one when you reach the bottom. It's hard, but if you know how much you have in your first keg, you can tell how much cold beer is in the second by the line of condensation that forms on the side of the fresh keg when you fill it.
Personally, haze doesn't bother me, and i rarely keep my beer around long enough to clear. (Except when I brew for Gulf Brew.)
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Postby Imakewort » Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:40 pm

I used to have some haze problems but found that mashing a little longer and making sure I have complete conversion cured a lot of those problems, And when That did not work I filter, but since I am more careful of my mash temp. and having full conversion, and adjusting my mash and sparge waters pH Those problems went away.

see link for a good technical article on beer hazes.

http://www.brewerssupplygroup.com/pdf/k ... _Hazes.pdf
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Postby GuitarLord5000 » Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:24 pm

The beers ended up clearing pretty well. I guess I just jumped the gun a little bit, since these beers took longer than what I've come to expect on my equipment. I'm still a little confused about why they were so cloudy post-boil. I usually end up with very clear wort after the boil. These were pretty cloudy, and didn't produce the amount of break material I'm used to seeing with Pale and Pilsner malt. Usually, as soon as I turn the water on to my immersion chiller, I've got a lot of break material floccing together. I didn't have nearly as much with these two. I'll have to make a couple more batches with these malts to see if it's a continuing trend or not.

Thanks for all the posts!

Cheers,
Dave
In extreme circumstances, the assailants can be stopped by removing the head or destroying the brain. I will repeat that: by removing the head or destroying the brain. - News Anchor, Shaun of the Dead
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Postby Imakewort » Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:45 am

here is another link with some great info from Muntons malt on troubleshooting brewing problems. Prost
http://www.muntons.com/minibrewing/trou ... efault.asp
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Postby GuitarLord5000 » Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:34 am

Wow, that's a pretty great troubleshooting tool! Thanks!

Cheers,
Dave
In extreme circumstances, the assailants can be stopped by removing the head or destroying the brain. I will repeat that: by removing the head or destroying the brain. - News Anchor, Shaun of the Dead
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Postby Imakewort » Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:39 am

Here is another technical pdf slide show on beer fining's and clarification

http://www.brewerssupplygroup.com/pdf/k ... Manual.pdf
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