Hops Flavor?

Forum for all brewing related questions and information

Moderators: triple-oh_six, yeastmeister

Hops Flavor?

Postby GuitarLord5000 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:33 am

Hey Guys,

I brewed a beer a couple weeks ago. I was wanting to get a lot of hops flavor and aroma in the beer. To do this, I made a 2 oz. addition at 15 minutes, and a 1 oz. addition at 10 minutes. The IBU's were only about 25, but when I was done boiling and cooling, the wort was very hoppy.
I used Nottingham yeast in it, and let it do its fermenting. I tasted at racking time, and there just wasn't very much hops flavor or aroma. I realize that I could dry hop the beer, and that is likely what I'll do, but I'm not sure why so much of the flavor and aroma got scrubbed during fermentation.

Any ideas?
User avatar
GuitarLord5000
 
Posts: 348
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:15 pm
Location: Carencro, La

Postby Imakewort » Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:17 pm

adding hop aroma has a lot of variables, do you use a hop sack or just throw it in the boil kettle, how hard was your boil that can drive off a lot of aroma, did you have a very vigorous fermentation, that is a lot of blow off, that can throw a lot of flavor and aroma out, and some yeast can have a detrimental effect on hop aroma and bittering, I looked at Danstars web sight for some info as I do not use dry yeast here is what they said about The Nottingham strain.
• The aroma is slightly estery, almost neutral and does not display malodours when properly handled. Because of flocculation, it may tend to slightly reduce hop bitter levels.
Mad dog Brewery
I am not afraid to go fast, it's the crashing and burning that sucks
Corporal BN army
Imakewort
 
Posts: 438
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:44 am
Location: Afganastan

Postby yeastmeister » Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:57 pm

Give us a little more to work on....type of hops? Are you missing flavor and bitterness or just flavor? Were you missing some specific hop flavor you are looking for (citrus)? Did you control the ferm temps?

Just trying to play detective, I've used nottingham before, and not had any problems. Although, I admit I'm not really a hop head (well, not officially, but there are a few extremely hoppy beers that I like).
User avatar
yeastmeister
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1303
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:41 am
Location: Lafayette, LA

Postby Imakewort » Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:27 pm

could you post your recipe, that will help us a little. And did you modify your water any. Here is a guide I go by when modifying my water this might help.

Determine what flavor ions you want in your beer. Calcium, magnesium, and carbonate primarily effect the pH of the mash, the other three are just there for flavor. Here are my suggestions for various types of beer:

Sulfate - Hoppy beers get 175 ppm, moderately hoppy beers get 75 ppm, and low hopped beers get less than 50 ppm.

Chloride – Hoppy beers get less than 50 ppm, moderately hoppy beers get 75 ppm, and low hopped beers get 100 ppm.

Sodium – Hoppy beers get less than 30 ppm, moderate hop/malt beers get 50 ppm, and very sweet/malty beers get 75 ppm.
Mad dog Brewery
I am not afraid to go fast, it's the crashing and burning that sucks
Corporal BN army
Imakewort
 
Posts: 438
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:44 am
Location: Afganastan

Postby GuitarLord5000 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:32 pm

Alright.

At 15 minutes, I put 1 oz. Spalt Select at 2% AA, and 1 oz. Tradition at 5.8% AA.
At the 10 minute mark, I added 1 oz. of Amarillo Gold at 8% AA.

When the wort was finished boiling, I turned on my immersion chiller and threw a block of ice into the wort. The wort was cooled in less than 10 minutes. When I racked the beer into the carboy, I took a taste, and the flavor was like sweet hop tea. VERY hoppy. Tons of aroma too.

I aerated the wort a bit with an aquarium pump and sterile filter, then pitched the yeast. The next morning the yeast was doing its thing. The fermentation was vigorous, but no overly so. I have a 6.5 gallon carboy for primary, so I never had any kind of blowoff.

I don't have a dedicated beer fridge for spot on temp control, but I do keep my carboy in an ice chest with a bit of water, and use frozen water bottles to keep it cool. I've always been within recommended yeast temps for ales with this setup.

Here's the recipe:
7 lbs. Pilsner
3 lbs. Munich (6.5 SRM)
1 lb. Dark Munich (10 SRM)
.5 lbs. Aromatic

1 oz. Spalt Select @ 15 min
1 oz. Tradition @ 15 min
1 oz. Amarillo @ 10 min
1 whirlifloc tablet @ 15 min

Mashed at 158 for 1 hour. Sparge with 4.5 gallons of water.
*EDIT* - I boiled the wort for 90 minutes, since I was using pilsner malt.

No water modifications, besides preboiling.

*EDIT* - This is the first beer I've brewed where I was looking for something hoppy. When I racked the beer and tasted it, there was very little aroma and almost no flavor. The bitterness was there, though not as much as I expected (as per Nottingham's website), but I was expecting a bit more of a hops punch, and that just wasn't there either in aroma OR flavor.

Thanks for the replies!
Dave
User avatar
GuitarLord5000
 
Posts: 348
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:15 pm
Location: Carencro, La

Postby Imakewort » Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:34 pm

I notice you have no flame out additions, A lot of your hop flavor and aroma comes from the 0 minute addition, that is after flame out. Add hops and wait no more than 5 minutes and chill as fast as possible. Remember hoppy beers have a 6 week shelf life they start going downhill after that. good luck
Mad dog Brewery
I am not afraid to go fast, it's the crashing and burning that sucks
Corporal BN army
Imakewort
 
Posts: 438
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:44 am
Location: Afganastan

Postby yeastmeister » Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:43 pm

Agreed, I always add my aroma hops at 2 minutes. 10 Minutes may have been too much and let the aroma to have boiled off (depending on how vigorous your boil was.)

Igors salt additions are appropriate. If you used Lafayette water or some private well, you may need to add salts to get hop utilization going.

Also, if its not carbonated sufficiently yet, then maybe thats the kicker. The outgassing co2 in a beer is what manages to get the hop smell into your nose. As in most things, the human sense of smell has a lot to do with flavor perception. Try blind tasting any 2 friuts (apples/pears for example), hold your nose and taste each. Can you tell the difference? Probably not. Approximately 2/3 of the human perception of taste comes from the sense of smell. The brain is a crazy thing.

Show up at the meeting tomorrow and let us try it if you can. We would love to help!
User avatar
yeastmeister
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1303
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:41 am
Location: Lafayette, LA

Postby Imakewort » Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:25 pm

OK yeastmeister, salt additions are considered total amounts per ppm, also guiterlord I forgot to add ( drinking hoppy brown ale) go ahead and try dry hopping for no more than 3 days, if not enough do it again for 3 days, if you go more than 3 days then you run the risk of increasing vegetative flavors. see you tomorrow
Mad dog Brewery
I am not afraid to go fast, it's the crashing and burning that sucks
Corporal BN army
Imakewort
 
Posts: 438
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:44 am
Location: Afganastan

Postby GuitarLord5000 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:41 pm

Wish I could make it to the meeting... I'm offshore right now! I racked the beer to secondary before coming out here.

It never occurred to me that the fact that it was flat might have alot to do with the lack of hoppiness. It makes sense. I'll have to re-evaluate the beer after it's carbonated.

I understand what you guys are saying about the 15 and 10 minute hop additions not being late enough to retain flavor and aroma. But once the wort was cooled, there was still a ton of both. Doesn't that mean that there wasn't too much hops aroma boiled off? Or is cooled wort not a good way to judge these things?

Thanks for the info on the salt additions IGOR. I've been planning to get some water salts, I just need a reason to place an order with NB.

Thanks for the replies!
Cheers
Dave
User avatar
GuitarLord5000
 
Posts: 348
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:15 pm
Location: Carencro, La

Postby Imakewort » Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:55 am

before you do any water adjustments you need to know where you are, send a water sample to ward laboratories, then use Palmer's spreadsheet for RA adjustments, for hop additions, 60 minute are for bitterning, 10 to 15 minute is for flavor, 5 and under for aroma.

http://www.wardlab.com/
http://realbeer.com/hops/
Mad dog Brewery
I am not afraid to go fast, it's the crashing and burning that sucks
Corporal BN army
Imakewort
 
Posts: 438
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:44 am
Location: Afganastan

Postby aleguy » Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:22 am

I can tell you from experience and from a lot of reading, you should end up with plenty of hop flavor but not much aroma from your late additions. A zero minute addition followed by a 10 minute steep before chilling your wort is a good way to get a moderate hop aroma.
Since it's too late for that, and you've already racked to secondary, you can increase your aroma by dry hopping. Two oz. for two weeks. You don't really get any vegetative flavors until after two weeks. Even if you do, they are considered acceptable under BJCP guidelines.
If you want to add more hop flavor as well as aroma, boil up some DME and put it into a french press coffee maker and let your hops steep in the wort for 15 minutes. Press it out and use the result to prime with. No chance you will lose ANYTHING to out gassing because it will finish in a sealed container.
User avatar
aleguy
 
Posts: 2112
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:36 pm


Return to DeadYeast Main Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron